Transcript for Episode 97: South Asians in the United States

Announcer:
This episode is sponsored by Connect to End COVID-19.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
From the National Association of Social Workers, this is Social Work Talks, and I'm your host, Elisabeth LaMotte. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Dr. Shreya Bhandari. She's here to talk about her new book, South Asians in the United States: A Guide for Social Workers and Other Helping Professionals. Here is the book. I'm holding it up for our viewers.

Dr. Bhandari is the director of social work at Purdue University Northwest and she is a seasoned writer, researcher, professor. She is a licensed independent social worker with a private practice. Her research focus is on violence against women, specifically domestic violence, and she has over 30 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters and her research has been funded by the National Science Foundation. Dr. Bhandari, welcome to Social Work Talks. Thank you for writing this wonderful book. Can we start out with you telling us about the book and how you came to write it?

Shreya Bhandari:
Thank you for having me, Elisabeth, and thank you to NASW Press for offering me this opportunity to get this anthology together. Just responding to your first question, in my work as a social work educator and as a researcher in this field, I came to realize that there is very little information or knowledge about the South Asian population.

South Asians, when I say that term, it means people who belong to the Indian subcontinent and who live all over the world. This book is specifically on South Asians in the US, so the specific countries are India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, Sri Lanka. People don't know much about this population. Their interaction would've been through a doctor, a physician, or it would've been in a restaurant. And so, that was a big need, to educate the population about, "Who is the South Asian population?" That was one big need.

The other thing I started noticing when I started working in the field is that when people go out to seek help, whether it is for mental health or for domestic violence, there was a lack of culturally responsive care. And this is not the first time somebody is pointing that out. It has been documented well in the literature. That started making me think that we have to create this next generation of social workers.

We have to educate them. We have to let the practitioners know what are the needs of this population and how can they offer culturally responsive care. Just like you said in the introduction, my training has been in the field of domestic violence. I also do mental health therapy, but there are these other areas that I have not been trained in or have not done my research in.

And so, I basically then gave a call-out for other academicians and researchers who are doing this work and see if somebody would like to contribute chapters towards talking about South Asian older adults. Talking about South Asians in the US who belong to the LGBT community. Talking about the immigration barriers that especially women experience when they move to this country, because of how broken our immigration system is. Saying, "What does that do to somebody who would've had a well-groomed career back home?" That basically led to this huge project and this book that's in front of you today.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
It's a deeply researched, thorough book.

Shreya Bhandari:
Thank you.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Very early on, a term is referenced, "Model minority." It's referenced in your chapters and other contributors, and it's right in the beginning. Could we talk about that term and go from there?

Shreya Bhandari:
Model minority is a very heavily loaded term and there's a lot of judgment involved. There was a time when I had thought of titling my book with that term, and then I backed out. Here's why. I will tell you, that is a big myth. On paper, South Asians do well economically, education wise, socially. People think they're the best immigrant group, but one needs to look into the history of why that is and how biased that view is and how biased that title is.

And so, that is the piece that I have actually explained really well in the first chapter of the book, that it's a myth. If you look back into the immigration, the way the laws were passed in this country, there was a halt in Asian or specifically South Asian immigration after 1924 for about 40 years or so. And it resumed in 1965 with the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

The people who came to this country at that time from the Indian subcontinent were usually doctors or engineers or lawyers. Those kinds of people who were cherry-picked from the country, who were coming here to further their education and belong to the professional community. 1965 was also the time in the United States we got the Voting Rights Act passed. We got just a year ago, the Civil Rights Act was passed. The South Asian community did not have the need ... They did not experience the Jim Crow-era segregation.

They didn't have the need to express solidarity with the African American community, the Latinx community, or the indigenous community. It's a false comparison to say that, "Hey. Look, this group is doing so well. Why can't the others too?" Because you're now trying to compare a group that has ... When I talk about African Americans or the Latinx, who have been discriminated and oppressed for centuries. That was not the case.

There were some experiences of discrimination and violence with South Asians too, and I've listed those, but that was very different from what these communities have experienced. The first point is you cannot compare the two groups. The second is not everybody is doing well. There's a group of people who work as taxi drivers. There are South Asians too who work in grocery stores, who work in restaurants. There is a huge group of Bhutanese refugees that the United States has started accepting since 2008. Excuse me.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Yes. I was struck by how with that group, the statistics in your research look so different. Including the suicide rate. Across the board, they look different.

Shreya Bhandari:
Absolutely. The suicide rates are really high. They also belong to the South Asian community, but we don't talk about those groups. And so, that is another issue. That's a misconception. And then, when you put the label of model minority, you tend to not look at the social problems.

It's almost like this community does not have domestic violence or delinquency or addiction problems or disability issues. And that's not the case. And so, the mainstream thinks that this community doesn't have a problem. The community in itself doesn't want to admit it has problems. Overall, it's a big myth.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
It's worth noting that it is a myth from a term that was coined in the New York Times. Was that in the '30s? In the New York Times, I believe it was in the '30s.

Shreya Bhandari:
It actually started with the Japanese-Americans. I think in the 1960s or so, with William Peterson. And it's not just used for South Asians. It's actually used for Asians in general. "Look how well they do," and all of that. You have to look at the larger picture of how the immigration system is set up, and what are the kinds of people that the immigration system allows to come into this country.

Yes, there are family reunification programs and stuff like that, but you cannot just cherry-pick a subset and look at that, and then say, "Hey. They're doing so well." It's inaccurate.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
And so, Dr. Bhandari, who will benefit most from reading this book?

Shreya Bhandari:
The reason I included, "Helping professionals," was that I did not want this to be limited to social work students and social work practitioners. Anybody who is working with South Asians ... It could be a psychologist, it could be a doctor, it could be a physical therapist. It could be anybody. When help is sought, you need to know what is the family dynamics behind this, so on and so forth.

Anybody who would like to get a real picture rather than the Bollywood, the mainstream view that you get when you see those shows, which is a biased picture. I would say anybody who wants to know more about this community, who wants to get a clear picture about this community and is in a helping profession, I would recommend this book.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
I would as well. In getting this deeper picture and this deeper understanding, as I was studying your research in the book, one thing I was particularly struck by were the percentages around intergenerational, multi-generational households. Can you say more about that for our audience?

Shreya Bhandari:
I would like to talk a little bit about the South Asian cultural values. South Asians ... Actually, if you go by the value system, it is in complete contrast to the Western values. South Asians believe in interdependence and collectivism and cooperation and those kind of things. Versus there is individualism here. There is independence here.

And so, a big part of that is caring for the older adults in the family, and family doesn't get limited to parents. It could also be extended members of the family. Extended members or members of the extended family. Also, it includes caring for the young children. There is that interdependence that you will see. If it's an immigrant family, it is perfectly normal for parents to travel and live with the young immigrant family for months together to care for the newborn baby.

Similarly, if an older adult is getting old and doesn't have much support back home or in the home country, you see more and more older adults moving here and living with their kids. And if it is the second or the third generation moving in, nursing homes or independent facilities is still looked down upon and frowned upon. Again, going back to the values. There is this give and take of labor, if you will, which is common.

They may sometimes live in the same household if finance is an issue. Or they may live nearby, which is again, something that goes back to the values and what we stand for. Social support is a big piece too. There's more and more research that shows us that helps with a lot of healing of mental illness and helps with the mental health issues, and so on and so forth.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Yes. You're making me think of one of the paragraphs in the book that was particularly powerful to me, which I'll quickly read, if that's okay.

Shreya Bhandari:
Sure.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
This is page 66, which is part of chapter three, which is about domestic violence.

Shreya Bhandari:
Okay.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
You write, "The first step in initiating a working relationship with a client is to establish trust. Meeting the client where the client is involves validating her experience and listening carefully. It is essential to intertwine what we know about South Asian culture with the client's identity. For example, a client may or may not identify as abused in the beginning, which may involve some level of education. And the best way to establish rapport with a South Asian client is to reassure them that things will fall into place, and that the client is not alone in this battle. An approach that stems from the collective culture in which interdependence is valued over independence and individualism."

Shreya Bhandari:
That explains it all. That I think is a big reason why a lot of people struggle when they seek care. It also goes to mental health issues, because a lot of it is South Asians expect advice from the therapist. But the role of the therapist, as you know, I see the smile, is to help you make a decision. It's like, "If I have to make the decision, then why do I come to you?" But that's how the brain is trained.

Even with the doctors, they recommend the treatment, but South Asians expect them to be told. It's a very basic thing, but it goes a long way. Eventually, you tend to come and understand each other on what the basis of the treatment should be. But philosophically, you have to focus on, "Why is the client saying that?" It's because of the values.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
As you describe this, I'm reminded of another term in the book that is referred to in your chapters as well as from some of the other contributors. The term is, "Log Kya Kahenge." Am I saying it correctly?

Shreya Bhandari:
No. It's, "Log ..." You did try. You tried.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
It's wrong.

Shreya Bhandari:
Log Kya Kahenge.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Thank you.

Shreya Bhandari:
What that means is, "What will people say?" I have actually in this book been very deliberate about this, but I have not italicized words in Hindi or Urdu and kept them as it is. Another word you would see around would be, "Izzat," which is honor. I can bring that up too later, but a lot of emphasis ...

Elisabeth LaMotte:
I think they go together.

Shreya Bhandari:
They do.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
They go together, and in some of the chapters, they're discussed together.

Shreya Bhandari:
Absolutely. They do. And so, "Log Kya Kahenge," is basically, "What will people say?" A similar concept would be shame. I will take that concept of shame and probably explain that. Maybe it'll resonate more. Shame as a concept is of your individual shame. That's what the Westerners understand it. But here, when we get into the concept of, "Izzat," or honor, it's more of a family honor.

If my child is gay or if I've had a divorce. Or if I don't fall into that box of being a heterosexual family, making so much money, with kids who are doing well in school and having a big house. Whatever that definition is of, "You have made it." I am bringing shame not just to myself, but I'm dishonoring my entire family that I am a failure.

And so, even though this has been explained in the chapter on LGBT, where expressing your sexual orientation ... What will people say if they find out I have a gay son? What will people say if they find out I have a trans kid at home? It can be applied to domestic violence. It can be applied to mental health. It can be applied to any and every concept. It goes beyond individual shame. It goes to the extent of the family shame. You're literally dishonoring the family. And so, that becomes a barrier to seek help.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
How would you connect this concept to domestic violence?

Shreya Bhandari:
Just like I mentioned ...

Elisabeth LaMotte:
If you would? If you can do it.

Shreya Bhandari:
Absolutely. If I'm being abused, it's like I did something wrong. Blaming myself. "If only I would've cooked well. If only I would've done A, B, and C well." So it boils down to self-blame. And then, "I did something wrong and that's why I'm being abused. I'm bringing dishonor to my whole family if I decide to do something about it." Because it's okay to get ... Men always do that.

Men have always been like that. Patriarchy 101 plays in, which again is universal, but then you put the entire concept of family honor in place. It can also play the role of if I have a younger sister or a brother back home, "Oh my gosh. You brought dishonor to the family. That may have an impact on them getting married."

I would like to just add a little bit more to that. Anecdotally, I have not looked at the numbers, but I'm seeing more and more urban women are not taking any more nonsense and are taking steps, are divorcing. There are things that are changing. I don't want the audience to think that, "This is a very conservative society and women don't have any rights."

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Why now? Why do you think you're seeing that now? What does that mean?

Shreya Bhandari:
I think with the increase in the levels of education and with more and more women getting out of their homes and earning their own money, with their financial independence, women are speaking up. And I think the internet connects people globally. It's as simple as that. I'm not saying that there are no problems.

There are still a lot of problems and not everybody gets to speak up and not everybody gets to do the action. But I've also noticed that a lot of South Asians here may be ... There is a contradiction to what I'm saying, but may be very well-educated. Or a lot of samples of my research studies have been doctors, really specialist doctors, but still tolerate abuse. Or are not okay, but have not done anything about it. And a lot of it is because of the shame.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
As we explore this, I think our audience would be interested to hear a bit about dowries, because they are written about in the book and interesting in how it overlays with this conversation.

Shreya Bhandari:
Great. Even before we speak about it ... Especially, in India, a dowry has been banned in 1961 through the Dowry Provision Act. There are laws in place that if you are found to be asking for a dowry or harassing your wife or daughter-in-law, you can basically be imprisoned. In spite of that, a dowry is an integral part of Indian marriages. A little bit of history.

Dowry actually started among the upper caste Hindus during the Vedic period. The reason it started ... The reason is actually really a good reason. Women were not allowed to inherit their natal property. Birth property. Because once a girl gets marriage, she's considered to be the property of her husband and in-laws' property. She cannot inherit anything from a natal family. So this was a financial security for her. She was given land, jewelry, money, clothes, whatever.

During the British rule, the British has passed laws that women can no longer own land or own property or own things. And so, what started happening during colonization is that a lot of this was then given to the in-laws of the husband and they started owning it. Even though it was a financial security for the woman, it was all done with a good intention. Just it went into the hands of the in-laws or the husband. Eventually, it was banned, but it still is ... It's like a, "Don't ask, don't tell," kind of thing.

People still do it in all kinds of marriages. It's under the guise of gifts. What happens and why is this connected to what we are talking about today? Especially, in cases of domestic violence or when a woman decides to divorce. If she's in the United States, she may go and tell the social worker or somebody who's helping her, "What about what was given to me in dowry?" You will be surprised. She'll say, "Hey. But that's back home and my mother-in-law has it," but remember, it was given to her.

It is her valuables and her jewelry. Now, because there is no international law in place, how does she retrieve that? In India, we have laws in place, which again, you can still question whether women really get it back or not. It's called, [Hindi 00:24:25], which is like a woman's wealth. But when she's here and it's not with her, how do we facilitate that she gets back all that was given to her as a gift? That's why it becomes really important to at least have a basic understanding.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Exactly.

Shreya Bhandari:
If someone was trying to say, "Hey. It's not just the marriage expenses, but these gifts were given to me and I would like to have them back."

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Do you think that social workers should have a basic understanding of the complexities of the history of the tension between different religious groups, ethnic groups? I found myself curious about that as I was reading the book. What is your perspective?

Shreya Bhandari:
India is a very unique country. There are tensions definitely amongst Hindus and Muslims especially. It is important to have that understanding. It's important to know that you know the facts. Bangladesh and Pakistan were parts of India. Pakistan was born in 1947 when India gained independence, and then Bangladesh was born in 1971. It's important to know the facts and understand the differences between the religions.

And also know, for example, if you have a Hindu client ... And I'm just giving you the basics. There's a lot more nuances and we could chat for the entire day or probably weeks getting into the complexities. But it's important to know basic things. If you're in a women's shelter, Hindu women or a Hindu person may not ever eat beef. Because cow is holy to them.

Similarly, a Muslim client will never eat pork, because pigs are unholy for them. One is the issue of vegetarian food versus non-vegetarian food. Understanding that piece is also important. Just ask the dietary needs. Especially, in a shelter setting. But also, understand that those things will matter when you're trying to be culturally responsive.

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Elisabeth LaMotte:
In being culturally responsive, in knowing the facts, in having a deeper understanding, which I do feel like I gained from reading your book ... I'm curious. What other resources might you recommend beyond your book? Whether pop-cultural or otherwise? You referenced this earlier in the conversation. I wonder what you would suggest?

Shreya Bhandari:
I would say, pop culture, I have a few names that I would recommend in terms of movies that have been made that are very sensitively made around social issues. There's one which is actually called, Badhaai Do, which is basically a beautiful love story about a gay man and a lesbian woman who do a marriage of convenience.

Funnily enough, the author has mentioned that in her chapter, but it's very sensitively made. So that is one. There is one very recent called Doctor G, which is around the entire issue of sexism that we see. Both subtle and blatant about how we treat women and their bodies. Hasan Minhaj has done a standup comedy. It's the one in 2017, Homecoming King. I think he talks about Log Kya Kahenge too really well.

These are the two or three that I would recommend if people interested in pop culture. But other than that, I would say a lot of the bigger universities have South Asian institutes or South Asian centers. It might be a history or religion or an interdisciplinary kind of center. Those would be the places where you want to probably get a minor or probably get your resources from. It also depends on ...

Elisabeth LaMotte:
That's helpful in thinking about it.

Shreya Bhandari:
There is also another. There's a Directory of South Asian Therapists that was started in June of 2020 and it's a global directory. You can literally look up any part of the world and look up for a South Asian therapist there.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
How do you access the directory?

Shreya Bhandari:
You just Google, "South Asian therapist." That has been a huge resource. In the United States and in the UK, and a lot of other countries, we have licensed therapists. India does not have licensure, but you still can find people working in the field of mental health in different parts of the world. And so, that is a huge resource if somebody's seeking help for mental health.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
You mentioned in this conversation sexism as an, "-ism." One thing we have not yet covered is colorism. Can you speak to colorism for our audience, please?

Shreya Bhandari:
Colorism basically means the preference for the lighter skin tone. As I've mentioned in my book, we don't know how it all started, but we know for sure that it is widely-accepted and there is preference for lighter skin. We don't know if it was the Mughals, who came from the Persian belt, or if it was the European colonization. How did it all start?

But currently, it's a multi-billion dollar industry where fair skin is just sold to people. A lot of people are speaking out against it now and there are campaigns against it, but we still see ads of, "We want a fair and beautiful bride," or those kinds of things. The preference for the lighter skin tone is what colorism is. And so, discrimination on the skin tone.

We have to get again into the details of the caste, class, and all of those things to understand this. A little bit about the skin tone could also be because of the climate. There are certain regions like the southern part of India or countries like Sri Lanka where because the sun is bright and hot, if you're out, the color of the skin is darker. And then, there's this concept of people of the lower caste who are expected or were expected to do jobs outside in the hot sun.

They did not have the resources to care for their skin and hence have the darker skin tone. It's all intertwined with the darker the skin tone, the lesser off you are considered. And the preference is for the lighter skin tones. When we talk about South Asians in the US, girls are still given this message, "Don't go out and play sports in the hot sun. You'll get dark. Your skin will get tanned. And then, nobody will marry you." And so, messages around those.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
These are messages that social workers and other helping professionals really need to be educated about, attuned to.

Shreya Bhandari:
Aware about. Yes. I've actually explained ... I wanted to bring it up, because it's like racism, but it's very different. It could be a person of the lower caste or it may not be. And there is a lot of discrimination that happens within the community with the skin tone. When people belong to the northern parts of the Indian subcontinent versus people who belong to the certain parts of the Indian subcontinent.

And so, there is a lot of bias that we have even within our community with regard to the skin tone. How does that play out when you're bringing up daughters? Especially, daughters. Because there are Hindu texts where we have figures like Lord Ram or Lord Krishna, were they were dark-skinned. But then, when we talk of Goddess Parvati, apparently she had to get a boon to become fair-skinned to impress Lord Shiva.

And so, there is that intertwined sexism along with colorism that's playing in. You are sending these messages not even realizing it from one generation to another. That's where your beauty industry jumps in and wants to sell you these dreams. There we are.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
And some of the products are just downright dangerous.

Shreya Bhandari:
They are.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
They really are.

Shreya Bhandari:
You will also notice a lot of Bollywood actresses, their skin tone in the '90s and the 2000s and their skin tone now. What kind of treatments are they undergoing for a lighter skin tone? Why is that so important? Why is a darker skin tone not acceptable?

Where is this bias coming from? And so, it's there. I'm not going to comment on what the source is. I'm not trying to blame anybody. It's there in almost everybody. Are we willing to look at it? Are we willing to address it? That's the question.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
And I think social workers are always in the sphere of people who need to look at it and figure out the most appropriate ways to begin to address it. Is there anything else that you want to make sure our audience knows about your book, Dr. Bhandari?

Shreya Bhandari:
I would just say a neat thing that we did in this book, and that I greatly wanted to do this, is that every chapter has a case study. Whether domestic violence or whether parenting or older adults or visa issues. If you really want to get an authentic picture of the issues that this community experiences, and if you do experience that when you go out and seek help ... If you have the resources, it may not be that difficult.

But the issue arises when you don't have the resources or you are in a smaller town where there isn't a large South Asian population. I would say it's a good way of educating yourself or somebody who wants to know more about this community.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Yes. The way you laid it out just runs the full circle of important topics. For example, with the visas and the way that the rules changed and changed back and what that means for women and working. I had no idea about that and I should. I should know about that.

I really thank you for writing the book. As you know, many in our audience are social workers. I think it would be great to hear more about you and your path toward a social work education. How did you decide to become a social worker?

Shreya Bhandari:
I had started volunteering when I was in my first or second year, maybe you would say a freshman or a sophomore, at an organization for street kids. That just interested me in social work. And then, I did not know that there was a master's in social work program in Mumbai, where I grew up. I was told about that by an uncle of mine, and it was pretty competitive at that time.

So I got into the master's in social work there. It was a challenge in the beginning, but I was interested in the field. And as I went in and did my masters in social work, I really started liking it more and more. And then, my first job was I worked as a social worker in the field of domestic violence. That really trained my brain and mind to think a social worker, work like a social worker, research and even educate to some extent.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
And that was at Tata Institute of Social Sciences in Mumbai, India. And then, you came here for your doctorate in social work?

Shreya Bhandari:
Right.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
What strikes you about one place versus the other in terms of the social work education?

Shreya Bhandari:
My goal was to basically not run away from practice, but widening my horizons a little bit more. Getting into a research-based arena, so to speak. Because I realized that practice is good. It's funny that I've come back to practice and I'm practicing now along with teaching and other things.

It was not fairly common, but I did know a few people who had come to the United States for their doctorate. I was told that would really give me a very broad exposure to the field. And then, the sky is the limit. I knew I wanted to do something in domestic violence, and so I applied to a few schools.

When I came to the University of Missouri-Columbia, we had researchers doing domestic violence work there. And that's how I worked on an NIH grant with Johns Hopkins and all of that. But we had people working there in the field of domestic violence. That's what interested me to come here and work in this area, and take it from there.

Elisabeth LaMotte:
How do you find ... I asked you this question because I come to this conversation as a member of the NASW Private Practice Committee. And I am so glad to know that you're still practicing.

Shreya Bhandari:
I came back to the field around the time COVID hit. It was my sabbatical year and I think I was missing the field. I also did not want to get obsolete in my classroom. And so, that got me back. I actually named my practice, Tasalli Counseling, which actually means, "Reassurance," in Urdu. Because I was ...

Elisabeth LaMotte:
What led you to choose that name?

Shreya Bhandari:
I wanted it to be an Urdu or a Hindi name. Just because I was noticing so many South Asians trying to seek help and not getting the right kind of care. Back home in India, the center that I worked in was called Dilaasa. Dilaasa is also another term for reassurance. I really liked that term too. It was a center for domestic violence.

I wouldn't say it's a synonym, but it's a similar term. But I wanted it to be a South Asian name rather than hope, peace, and those kind of things. Because I wanted them to feel at home. Even my website has images of people from South Asia, so that they feel that they belong here. They won't feel that, "This is somebody who may never understand us."

Elisabeth LaMotte:
Dr. Bhandari, thank you so much for joining Social Work Talks. Listeners, viewers, you can learn more about Dr. Bhandari and how to purchase her book South Asians in the United States: A Guide for Social Workers and Other Helping Professionals through the Show Notes section of our website.

Coming soon will be a way to get continuing education credit for the book. If you purchase the book, you can look out for that in the not too distant future. Again, I thank you so much for joining us, and I thank you for writing this wonderful book.

Shreya Bhandari:
Thank you so much, Elisabeth.